Host: Kate Tellers

Kate: [00:00:03] Welcome to The Moth Podcast. I'm your host for this week, Kate Tellers. Last Sunday was Mother's Day in the US, and I have the construction paper collages to prove it. It's a holiday that can bring up a lot of feelings. 

Personally, I loved on my kids. I missed my own mom. And there are so many other stories of motherhood. In light of this and the fact that May is also Mental Health Awareness Month, we're bringing you two stories that sit at the intersection of motherhood and mental health. First up this week is Jim Giaccone. Jim told this story at a StorySLAM in New York City, where the theme of the night was Mama Rules. Here's Jim, live at The Moth.

[cheers and applause] 

[background instructions] 

Jim: [00:01:01] It was a Sunday evening in the fall. I was 25 years old. And my dad called and he said, "Jim, I'm really sorry to bother you, but I need your help. Can you please come over? It's your mom." I said yes. I hung up the phone. I didn't have to ask him what he needed help with. See, for pretty much as far back as I can remember, my mom had these periods in her life where she wasn't quite right. My earliest realization came when I was about seven years old. My mom called an emergency family meeting. When she had me and my siblings all lined up on the couch, the youngest about five, the oldest about 11, she wanted us to come clean with what she suspected was our drug use. I was really confused. 

I looked at my dad, and he had his face in his hands and he was crying. I looked at my mom and she was smiling. And even at seven, I knew that that smile didn't belong. My mom is the one that would force my barber to cut off all my hair when I was 12 years old, for reasons I'll never know. She became a hoarder, and she would give us gifts of shopping bags full of-- it was effectively garbage. She's the only grandparent that couldn't be left alone with her grandchildren, because you never knew which mom you were going to get.

But my mom also gave me my love for art. She was an art history major, and she exposed us kids to all forms of art and she encouraged us to pick up any form that we wanted. She gave me my love for classical music. It was forever playing on the AM radio on the shelf above the kitchen table. I guarantee in my neighborhood, I was the only kid that knew what a concerto was. [audience laughter] She's the one that would dance with my dad. I would never see them happier than when they danced. 

My mom is the one that taught me it was okay to go out and play in the rain. Not to get rid of me, but to make me use my imagination, to make me make the best of any situation put in front of me. I'd be the only kid out there in my raincoat and my boots and a popsicle stick and I'd be riding the imaginary rapids along the curb. I pulled up in front of my father's house. I went into the kitchen where my mother was seated. She didn't even acknowledge that I came into the room. She was smoking a cigarette and staring at the wall. But when I said, "Mom, why don't we take a ride?" she perked up and said, "Jimmy, that's a good idea. We haven't gone for a drink in a really long time." Me and my mom had never gone for a drink. 

On that ride, she only asked me one question, "Where are we going?" I told her the truth. I said, "I was worried about her and I wanted to get her checked out at the hospital." No more questions. She waited in a waiting room. The triage nurse called us into a small office off the hallway. And the nurse started taking my mother's vitals as I was filling out papers on a clipboard. When the nurse went to go put the blood pressure cuff on my mother's arm, my mother unexpectedly jumped up and grabbed this woman by the throat with two hands and started choking her. In a split second, they tussled out into the hallway. I was able to jump on my mother's back and peel her fingers off this poor woman's throat, who was gasping and flailing at my mom. I got her in a bear hug from behind and I took her down to the ground. She was still kicking and fighting, the back of her head smashing into my face.

Security came running over and they brought a gurney. By that time, my mother had gone limp. I picked up my mom and I gently put her on a gurney, and they strapped her arms and legs down. She was wearing that smile. My mom spent a very long time in the hospital. And with a lot of therapy and some medication, she got better. She was released. You knew which mom you were going to get now, but she was also definitely different. She seemed to have lost something. She seemed to have lost her pixie dust, her sparkle.

Years later, I saw my two older children standing at the front door in their pajamas. They were about five and six. They were bummed out because it was an early morning summertime thunderstorm outside. I grabbed the two kids by the hand, and I pulled them out into the pouring rain as they squealed. The three of us played Ring Around the Rosie and danced in the pouring rain, and it was absolutely pure joy. Thank you very much.

[hollering, cheers and applause] 

Kate: [00:07:18] That was Jim Giaccone. Jim lives on Long Island with his wife and two dogs, and owns a plumbing and contracting business. He has three grown children. You can see some photos of Jim's mother and father in the Extras for this episode on our website, themoth.org/extras. 

We first met Jim at a Moth workshop where we partnered with the September 11th Memorial and Museum, where Jim still volunteers and leads tours. He also works with Tuesday's Children, an organization for families affected by 9/11, mentoring two brothers who lost their father in the attack. 

Up next this week is Kate Spindler. Kate's story deals with prenatal and postpartum depression, which together are referred to as perinatal mood disorder. We spoke with certified nurse midwife, Shannon McCabe, to shed some light on these often-misunderstood experiences. Shannon happens to be a dear friend of mine who received an avalanche of emails from me when I had my first baby. We'll hear more from both of them after Kate's story. But here's a little from Shannon to give you some context before you listen.

Shannon: [00:08:28] We call it perinatal mood disorders. So, that encompasses depression and anxiety that can have an onset during pregnancy or in the postpartum period or both. It's obviously a sustained mood disorder with depressive symptoms or symptoms of anxiety, not fleeting moments, obviously, that everybody has, but more of a sustained, we're talking about over a few weeks of time and in duration that again, onset during pregnancy or in the postpartum period. 

We have these concerns more on our radar with anybody that has a history of any mood disorder like depression or anxiety outside of pregnancy or the postpartum period. But that's not all-encompassing. So, it really can happen to anybody.

Kate: [00:09:21] That was Shannon McCabe, certified nurse midwife. We'll hear more from her in a little bit. Now, to Kate Spindler. Kate told this story at a Twin Cities StorySLAM, where the theme of the night was Control. Here's Kate, live at The Moth.

[applause] 

Kate Spindler: [00:09:42] Oh, my God, there's so many people here tonight. [audience laughter] What? Okay. So, someday, I am going to tell my 9-year-old daughter about how I lost control when she was three weeks old. It had been a really hard pregnancy. First of all, I was by myself. I was alone. I was preeclamptic. If you don't know what that is, it means high blood pressure. They had discovered a benign, but very large tumor sitting on top of her, inside me. But worst of all, I had terrible prenatal depression. So, it's puzzling now, that in 2008, after I gave birth to her, maternal fetal medicine doctors decided that it would be a good plan to take me off all of my antidepressants. It took five days for me to start seeing things out of the corners of my eyes. 

At first, they were just shadows, like I would turn and I would see something dart away. And then, I started to believe that they were really there. And then, they started to actually grow heads. And pretty soon by day 10 or 11 postpartum, I was seeing full-on demons sitting around me. It's one thing to see demons, but it's another thing to have the demons start to give you directions. Day 14, the demons started telling me that I was filled with evil. And the only way to let the evil out was to slice open my arms. 

Now keep in mind, there was no one else living with me except my infant, and I was being given directions by Satan about what to do. I knew that I should probably tell someone that this was happening. But first, I made sure that I cut myself just in case the demons were right. So, I kept cutting for a couple of days, and I felt like I was really keeping things at bay. And then, I woke up one morning and the demons started telling me to stop feeding her, because if I kept feeding her, I would infect her with my evil. 

Now, part of my brain knew, “Okay, that is crazy. You have to feed your child.” But the other half of me was like, [whispers] “But what if they're right?” So, I bundled up my daughter, and I put her in the car seat, and I drove to my therapist's office and I said, "You need to take my baby because I'm evil and I can't feed her anymore. Because if I feed her, she'll be infected with evil and will die," I think, something like that. 

Luckily, I went to my therapist, who of course called behavioral health. While I was in the emergency room between rantings of "God has abandoned me," but I'm also "God's chosen one," but also there is like "Satan is following me" and just more stuff with the "letting the evil out," I said, "But I'm only going into behavioral health if I get to see my baby every single day." Now, I don't know if you guys know anything about locked mental wards, [audience laughter] but they do not allow children in locked mental wards. 

Locked mental wards do not look like the rest of the hospital, by the way. The rest of the hospital is, like, very sterile and very clean. And the mental ward is locked behind two heavy metal doors, and the paint is all chipped and everything is bolted to the ground, so that you can't throw it at anybody. The TV is like from 1992, and it's like this deep and it only plays Cops. [audience laughter] But I still thought that she was coming, because I believed them. 

Now, here's the thing. I was on a 50:50 hold, which is involuntary. So, I was there until they told me I could leave. Now, the first day, the nurses would come and I'd say, "Is she here yet? Is my baby here yet? Can I see my baby yet?" And they kept saying, "Oh, not yet. She's not here yet. Sorry." And finally, it got dark. And finally, I realized that I don't think they're going to allow my baby in. So, I had a huge meltdown, of course. They carried me back to my room and they sedated me.

I actually don't remember the next five or six days, but I do know that by day five or six, I stopped seeing monsters in my bed. By day eight or nine, I could bathe myself. Not alone, but I could bathe myself and I could eat. And by day 11, they decided that I was okay to go home. Let me tell you what it was like to hold my infant for the first time in 11 days, knowing that I hadn't been safe, like it wasn't safe for her to be with me. It was the worst and best moments of my entire life. 

So, my daughter is nine years old now. I'm going to take her out for dinner, just the two of us someday and I'm going to say, "This is what happened when your mom lost control. But I want you to know that if you lose control, no matter how far off the path you go, there's a way back and I'm the way back.” Thank you.

[applause] 

Kate: [00:16:01] That was Kate Spindler. Kate lives in St. Paul, Minnesota with the baby from her story, Zander, who is gender non-binary and now 12, her five-year-old son and husband. In 2014, she lost a middle daughter, a story she's also told on stage. Kate is now an advocate for women in postpartum and parents who have lost children. To see some photos of Kate and her family, head to our website, themoth.org/extras.

I sat down with Kate, mother to mother, Kate to Kate, to talk about motherhood, mental health, her story and what happened afterwards. Here’s me and Kate. 

I know that I had a very different idea of what motherhood would be like before I jumped in. [chuckles] Can you give me an idea of some, like, what did you think it would be like? Or, did you see mothers or know mothers and think like, "I will or won't be them"?

Kate Spindler: [00:16:57] I had not planned on being a mother at all. I was a single mom, and it was a big surprise. [laughs] And I joke that I was a young mom who was really bewildered and didn't know what to do. [whispers] But I was 29. [laughs] I drank too much, I smoked too much. I had just started graduate school. Turns out that my kid's dad is a fantastic guy. But frankly, I didn't really know that at the time, because we didn't know each other that well. So, it was started off as a big mess, and wondering what kind of mom I was going to be was a little bit-- Like, I was too naive to even think that far.

Kate: [00:17:41] So, now, let's jump ahead. The story ends and you're reunited. What were the days that followed? What did your days look like after that?

Kate Spindler: [00:17:50] The days that followed, my mom, who's from rural Iowa, came up and stayed with me. It was a lot of convalescing. It was a lot of outpatient. It was definitely a time of reckoning that I probably left too early. I basically demanded that I be let go. I had to make a lot of promises about the safety and there had to be-- they had to be assured that my mother was going to be there. Zander's dad was also there. And looking back, I know that I definitely should have been there longer. But it was torture, you know, frankly.

Kate: [00:18:35] Do you think that you could have known that though in the moment? I mean, do you think that if you were in the situation again, you would stay longer?

Kate Spindler: [00:18:43] If I were in the situation again, I think I would stay longer. I was of two minds. I knew that the way that the system was set up for mothers was not right.

Kate: [00:18:57] Yeah.

Kate Spindler: [00:18:58] This was not right. I knew that I should have been able to have supervised contacts with the baby and that just really, deeply cut me, because I knew that was wrong. I also knew that the fact that I had been taken off all medication before I gave birth was wrong. I was caught between, "I'm not getting better because I'm not bonding with my baby," and also, "I am not safe with myself." [sighs] So, would I do it again? I would do it again. Hopefully, what I've heard is that the system is different now.

Kate: [00:19:39] Shannon, my very patient friend and our expert nurse midwife, who you heard from earlier, also spoke about how attitudes towards mental health during pregnancy have changed over the years and how she handles the topic in her own practice.

Shannon: [00:19:53] I think that little by little, the stigma of mental health and dealing with mental health is eroding, which is great. The current statistic, I think, is one in five women will experience a mood disorder during their pregnancy or the postpartum period. So, it's incredibly common. So, as far as the way our practice handles our approach to mental health, as we try to address mood at every visit really normalizing it like, "Is the baby moving? Any bleeding? How's your mood?" [Kate laughs] Like, try and really [chuckles] make it. We should be asking about it in the same way we're asking about all of these other risk factors, right? 

And normalizing the idea that a variety of emotions are really normal throughout pregnancy and the postpartum period and that it's not all flowers and rainbows and joy. That should be part of it, but it's not all of it. Mom's mental health is the priority, because we know that untreated depression and anxiety can have devastating consequences for moms and babies. So, a lot of times, talk therapy with a counselor or therapist, sometimes it's a combination of that and medication for depression or anxiety. Certain medications have been very well studied in pregnancy, and in the postpartum period, and breastfeeding, and have very, very small risk profiles and can make a big difference on how mom is feeling.

Kate: [00:21:26] I literally think I could lift the quote, "Mom's mental health is a priority," from an email that you've sent me.

[laughter] 

Kate: [00:21:38] Since her three pregnancies, Kate has made herself available to other mothers who are struggling with their mental health during and after pregnancy. She told us that a large part of that work is validating their feelings and experiences because of how often perinatal mood disorder is left out of the conversation.

Kate Spindler: [00:21:56] I think there's a lot of shame. I think it's not only about that, but I think there's a lot of shame around mothering. I should say there's a lot of shame around anyone who has a uterus and gives birth. I think that the expectations are so high and the expectations are so high for ourselves that we want to live the experience that we've been dreaming of for nine months or even longer. When that starts to crumble and that starts to feel like that's not the reality we've lived into, then suddenly that's a hard pill to swallow.

Kate: [00:22:29] Yeah.

Kate Spindler: [00:22:30] So, I would say it's a cultural expectation of mothers and then also what we put on ourselves. But my God, most of all, it's that we have to go back to work.

[laughter]

Kate Spindler: [00:22:4] It’s time to recover. We don't get time to recover mentally or physically. We don't get time to bond. Boy, if you live in the US, you better get back to work, because that's the value that you bring.

Kate: [00:22:58] Yeah. Well, don't they say they want women to work as though they have no children and parent as though they have no job? Like, that's the expectation.

Kate Spindler: [00:23:08] That is absolutely true.

Kate: [00:23:10] I hear you. Lastly, I wanted to hear how Kate felt when she got the news her story would be on the podcast and that so many people would hear it.

Kate Spindler: [00:23:19] I was excited. [sighs] Just excited for people to hear a messy, ugly story that turns out well.

Kate: [00:23:33] Yeah.

Kate Spindler: [00:23:35] [chuckles] There was nothing redemptive about this story until later. There's nothing sexy or [chuckles] exciting about it. It was a drudge. It was terrible. It was ugly. It wasn't tied up in a bow, but it does have a happy ending.

Kate: [00:23:55] Yeah. This is not the narrative of motherhood that we're often told, which is why I think we need to hear it. 

To hear more of my conversations with storyteller Kate Spindler and nurse midwife Shannon McCabe, head to themoth.org/extras. 

I'm in awe of so many mothers and nurturers, including those who show patience and grace as we figure it out, like Kate did for me when my six-year-old decided to join in on our conversation. Speaking of children. Sorry, my five-year-- Remember I said I had a six-year-old. Kiddo?

Kate Spindler: [00:24:31] Hi.

Kate: [00:24:31] Hi, honey.

[crosstalk with Kate’s kid]

.

Kate: [00:24:40] Sorry, it's pickup for the other kid. So, it's me at here. Okay.

Kate Spindler: [00:24:44] No problem at all. I get you.

Kate: [00:24:47] [laughs] Thank you. 

[00:24:51] That's all for this week. Until next time, from all of us here at The Moth, have a story-worthy week.

Julia: [00:25:00] Kate Tellers is a storyteller, host and director of MothWorks at The Moth. Her story, But Also Bring Cheese, is featured in The Moth’s All These Wonders: True Stories About Facing the Unknown. Her writing has appeared on McSweeney's and in The New Yorker. 

This episode was produced by me, Julia Purcell, with Sarah Austin Jenness, Sarah Jane Johnson and Kate Tellers. 

The rest of our leadership team includes Catherine Burns, Sarah Haberman, Jenifer Hixson, Meg Bowles, Jennifer Birmingham, Marina Klutse, Suzanne Rust, Brandon Grant, Inga Glodowski and Aldi Kaza. Special thanks to certified nurse midwife, Shannon McCabe, for sharing her expertise and to both of our storytellers. 

Moth stories are true, as remembered and affirmed by storytellers. For more about our podcast, information on pitching your own story and everything else, go to our website, themoth.org. The Moth Podcast is presented by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange, helping make public radio more public at prx.org.